My Car, An Atheist

darwin fish

I didn’t know what the fish symbolised, until Ram explained me over the weekend. He glanced my car and asked if I was an atheist. Spontaneously I said NO [Note the point, your honor]. My car had an empty fish emblem like the picture above, stuck to its trunk. Until he told me about the Darwin fish, I had no clue except reading Darwin’s theory of evolution during high school. For starters [like me], Darwin Fish is a symbol of atheism and belief on the science of evolution that Darwin advocated. So having the Darwin Fish on the rear of your car means tom-toming the world that the driver is a believer of no-god philosophy.

It’s tough to write this post as it calls for self inquiry. Am I a believer of god or not? Answering in Nayagan Kamal’s tone, I should be saying, Theriliyepaa. Have read enough science like most of us – traveled around the mountain of Thiruvannamalai several times – agreed to the Bagath Singh argument on why he is an atheist – tasted Margazhi’s suda suda vaen pongal in perumal koil with the prabandams reverberating in the temple – read quite a bit of periyaar’s philosophies – argued about it with enough confused friends – carried the smallest idol of chandikeshwarar on my shoulders during urchavams – understood the essence of Bhagavath Gita – read enough Indian mythologies in Amar Chitra Katha – frantically followed Sujatha’s Kadavul Irukiraara series in Vin Nayagan and many more such ironies. The asynchronous mix of everything confuse me more than anything. Is god there or is it just a way to tame the animal inside ? I have searched/am searching many a place for a definitive answer. Both internal and external. The people whom I turned for answers never could answer me to my agreement. Neither could they make me fully believe/disbelieve god.

Am being a middle class here too. One among that middle class group which is neither able to believe or dis-believe god. A group that has read science but still changes the sacred thread every Aavini Aavittam. That’s where the pressure lies. Sometimes the intellectual geek in you suggests, enough dude!! life came from what Stephen Hawking defines as big bang and that theory is directly against the laws of Hinduism. At times, the poonal pops up and reminds, Ambi !! the creation and destruction of universe according to Hinduism is one day of Brahma’s life and we are just living when Brahman let out a breath of fresh air from his nose.

Whatsoever, I may not go ahead and tear out the Darwin fish from my car. Free speech.

I wrote this last night but didn’t hit the publish button. After shutting down my computer, I went to apply a blotch of vibuthi on my forehead and prayed, Nalam Tharum Sollai Kandukondain Narayana Enum Naamam, twelve times before I went to bed. Thinking whether god exists or not, I went into deep sleep.

122 thoughts on “My Car, An Atheist

  1. Great piece… its stuff like this that makes lazygeek.net what it is…

    ๐Ÿ™‚

    relate to every bit of your second para…
    naanum… “theriyiliye pa…” category thaan…

  2. Just like the earth evolved – big bang/darwin/u-name-it – “Belief” is an evolution.. its not just in reading or chanting but in a subjective realisation drawn from learning the lessons our life imparts, that we believe.. sometimes the most obvious is the most oblivious… until we realise it… and then… from

    Nalam Tharum Sollai Kandukondain Narayana Enum Naamam,

    u progress to,

    Thirukkanden ponmeni kanden.. seruk kilarum ponazhi kanden.. puri sangham kai kanden
    en azhi vannan pal inru…

    Some riddles cannot be solved.. but riddles need not be solved to be enjoyed…

  3. The fish, sans feet, is colloquially called a Jesus fish. I don’t know its significance exactly. There are many variations on this, such as the one you have, and a version of yours with “Darwin” written in the empty space. There is also one with a “truth” fish eating a “Darwin” fish.

  4. interesting piece, lazy…it’s something everyone encounters….whether there is God or not….i have been part of many all-nighters when we spent arguing this issue…i for one believe god (or religion) is a drug…for some their mere existence is dependent on this drug…they strongly believe in this unmindful of scientific theories..there r some others who have grown up with God in the sense that it is become a practicality…they r not very religious and stuff normally but murmur ‘kadavule’ when sthing is not going rite in some blind hope that He will take care of things…so it’s kinda of Crocin/Advil which u pop into ur mouth when u feel unwell…i think this is jus a societal thing..not jus hinduism speaking of which i am reminded of one example from Maugham’s classic ‘Of Human Bondage’. The hero, in his teens, deals with this similar issue and when he thinks he is clear says, ” Thank God I don’t believe in God anymore”…..

  5. I wish to imagine a continent of GODs…not just one

    If GOD’s is expected to listen to each and every individual’s prayers and favors, then there must be a continent of GODs..A single GOD cannot process these many service requests or who knows, may be he is powered by millions of itaniums with a real multitasking operating system whose queing is very powerful..

  6. Hi LG,

    The post of yours reflects the inner feeling of many people who are mostly middle class. Yes, these points popup in my mind sometimes. But knowingly..wantedly try to avoid those thoughts.. But with this confusion people have lived..living & will live too…

    The post was really cool in coming out most of our thought but othere do not let it out…& don’t want too also. Great!!:-)

  7. LG,
    Excellent post.
    Reflects correctly the confused state of ‘Born Brahmins’.
    May be you can find some thing interesting in this book Science of Self Realisation by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami.Look into it whenever you have time.

  8. Nilu — don’t be too harsh on people who have faith on something and they follow it. If aethist are one who doesn’t want to believe God, why do they need some symbol for them as an identity? From where it has come from?

    LG- Belief in anything, any form of Art, or Service, or Work, anything for that matter, with sincerity and not hurting anyone, you will achieve internal peace. That is what Anbe Shivam tells us. I think you have to add one more line in your yday’s blog post. Fish is the first form of Vishnu Avatar, which is as same as aethist symbol, and Chinese too consider Fish as Holy symbol.

  9. Nanba, ah after a while , an intersting matter to talk about. I very much liked the way you presented it. Absolutely unbiasing.
    Anyway, my penny worth.
    God exists are not, is a debate that you need to argue with yourself and not with others.
    I read above in the comments … cowdung, s**t etc and feel sorry for the people, who run from east to west, in the belief that earth would start to rotate in the opposite direction.
    Folks, sunrise kudichikom, mulichiko ! Viboodhi vaikaravan, has the belief that it wud bring good to him.
    Unakku pudikalaiyaa.Seiyaadhe.
    But you feel daily saarayathai thalaiyile thelihittu vandha nalladhu nadakumnu ninaikuriyaa. Good for you. Do it.
    Avan unnai kutham solla koodaadhu. Nee avanai kutham solla koodaadhu.
    Again for argument sake, push your file across to the other side of the table. Don’t pull his argument.
    End of the day, you should feel happy, no matter if you a aethist or sadist. Full Stop.

  10. sometimes it is easier on the mind to believe in a higher power and leave everything to it….

    what say?

    me from the same middle class tamil iyer category too… so could relate to every word!

  11. Lazy,

    We should have some mystery in life. Only then the rest of the life will be interesting.

    This Fish symbol might convey something else also.

    PS: Find Robert Langdon.

    -Crazy Geek

  12. //You might not want to drive around in southern US with that symbol on your Vehicle!//

    iii, I did came to know that the symbol might be senstive in the southern states. wouldn’t want to create one more issues among the ones available.

  13. //You still wear that thread and smear cow dung on ur face??//

    Anna, inga paathi paer mella payarathukku readya irukaanga. get ready. but beyond that honestly speaking, most of the atheists are also believers. they believe truth than god. some say god is truth.

    but would like to tell how you attained the gnana on atheism. i am not doubting your beliefs but calling themselves as atheists has become a fad these days. i don’t buy that.

  14. Nilu, I think along with Seetharaman I am also branding you as an atheist. maybe you are an agnostic as someone said here but the fact that you don’t believe in some rituals made me tag you like that. let’s see where this takes us….

  15. Kishore, What was that verse. seems familiar but cant get it.

    Ravi, Thanks.

    Ajay, Most of the all-nighters end up with such conversations that lead only to sleep. i have invested countless nights in such arguments. more on cinema than on god, ofcourse.

    Keerthi, indha escape thaaney venaangarathu.

    Saravanan, hmmm….

    Narasi/Jagan, Join the club.

    Hari, Thanks for the pointer. I am not sure if i can get that book here in US.

    Seetharaman, I agree with what you say on anbe sivam.

    Swami, For once ๐Ÿ™‚

    Prabhakar, Thanks for that.

    Brood_Mood, Yo !! Yo !!

    CG, are you coming from Da Vinci Code ??

  16. No, am not an atheist.

    And I also think Hinduism, Christianity and Islam are either pukable or laughworthy. Budhha was quite a cool dude, just that I disagree with him too. And basically with every damn theory on religion and God that has been propounded.

    Am not an atheist because I do not believe in the absence of god. Just like I do not believe in the presence of one. In short it ain’t a binary problem and more importantly I just do not care.

  17. Nilu, though I know Iyengar can answer you better, let me try my words.

    “Hinduism is laughworthy” could either be a very Careful sentence with millions of proofs and research in hands.. or just another careless loose-talk…

    The cow dung has been on millions of faces for thousands of years. I have stories to support.. but iam not sure if they are laughable. People wore it or a reason. People now wear it for unknown reasons.. but then wearing is all thats important. After all its not just crap… its Holy Crap ๐Ÿ™‚

  18. Awesome discussion…romba romba sandhoshama irukku…Ungallai ellam meet pannadhulla romba sandhosham…Keerthi, thanks for the reminder Kadavul anga thottu inga thottu en thalai mela kai vachida porar…hmm…

  19. Namma bhoomi madhiri million ulagangal irukaame? appadiya? Indha oru sooriyanuke enga oor vellorela veyil thaangalai…million suns???. These scientists always speak in millions. million miles away, million stars, million suns, million years..Appapa thalaiye suthudhu…Idhu ellathukkum ore Network administrator thana illa oru periya IT support team irukka? illa universe management work cheap planetku outsource pannitaangala? if yes, which is that offshore destination…..yaarna badhil sollungapa??

  20. Even Hawking is unsure about many things surrounding the Big Bang. State of Universe before the Big Bang, Homogenous expansion and the rate of expansion of the universe. He only resorts to hypothesis like chaotic boundary conditions or Creation of God. To me, A brief history of time only reaffirms that there’s no definite scientific answer that “There’s no god”.

  21. saravanan, ungalai bohoomi kadatha vendiya neram vanthaachu!

    ok let me too get into this topic,……..
    sometimes i too get this thoughts. and i used to ask some questions in my childhood days which will earn the opposition from my entire family. parents use to say “appdi ellaam solla koodaathudaa thapu”

    almost all doubts came after seeing the film dasaavathaaram

    what i said was…..
    1.in some avataar the vishnu lift the world to same the world….here if globe goes out of orbit means how comethe gravity is maintained? if the god lifts globe with his “mookku” nose, as i see in the film, will the parts of the globe coming in contact with nose wouldnt get
    damaged??? i also see the god in a giagantic size, wearing clothes, so will there be such big clothes? or if he is such big, where come he
    stands, as of waat we read srom astronomy, there is no such big hemishperic planet, and the god resembles a human form so where is the air or
    whatever so he can exist???? or is it tat the globe is compressed ??????????? !!!!!!!!!????????????) to the gods nose size and then

    expanded???????

    2. in one avatar, to show his power, lord shiva will grow ultra big size so lord bramma couldnt reach his feet or head, [this place only he

    uses the support of some flower from siva’s head to lie and prove his point] the same size problems here as found in 1st question

    3.same question of size releated to vamana avathaaram

    4.i still doubt how rama built a paalam to srilanka and just walked away to srilanka

    5. a major doubt. let krishna and rama be the lord of the world bcos they intheir all holy preachings refer ulagam, logam, bhoomi ect, and

    ramayana mahabaratha will bring in the other plans stars also in the story like karnan was born to soorian and kunthi, ect so if i assume

    they are not limited to india but they are world’s god, why did all epicsm happen only in india?? hy not ramayanam in uk and mahabaratham in uk,

    6. we have the leftovers of dinosaur’s bones, egypt’s mummies are there but why there is not many evidences for the 2 great epics, around
    which the whole of hindu religion is built?

    will Padmashree kamal’s Dasavatharam clear my doubts? !

  22. Hey LG, great discussion. Kudos for starting it.
    I am an atheist, for having done a Masters in Physics, it is tough for me to believe in a God.
    I accept centpercent with Marx’s “Religion is the opiate of masses”. For no other way can one explain the tolerance of continuing (and increasing) economic/social inequality in our country.
    But at the same time I hate people who go about making loose statements about religion.
    (The Cowdung btw has medicinal value and i can vouch for that…..enough ash on your fore-head helps a bit when suffering from cold.)

    What is bad about the so called religious people is more often than not, they mistake rituals to be religion.

    Hinduism probably is one religion which perceived that each of us requires a different route to enlightenment( whatever it may be). So though most Hindus end up practising the rituals and Bhakthi, Hinduism(advaitha atleast) treats it as an inferior step when compared to Karma and Gyana Marga.

    And if one studies Shankara closely, Advaitha sort of preaches atheism only.

  23. Hi Geek,

    Well written post there, I enjoyed reading it. And nice discussion too, this comment box is becoming a forum!

    Its all about faith, and one could believe in whatever keeps you in peace. I have had mixed feelings all over with this ‘kadavul irukkirara’ debate, but I think I am more of a theist. When it comes to the ideals or Hinduism, I do not believe in all that it says.. I do not exactly believe in idol worship but I like going to the temples and find Peace in going around to the temples. I like Gods!

    As for the rituals and other seemingly unscientific things we do, if that gives you peace, go ahead and do it.

    Religion is more about realization. Anbe Sivam, Arive Sivam, are all variants substantiated by what you strongly believe.

    I am not in favor of hurling stones at atheists and dictating that their life will be doomed, and would appreciate if others (atheists, theists who don’t follow the same customs, or whoever) be respectful of fellow beings’ beliefs.

    Peace.

  24. Silicon Sillu
    Unga post comedy-aa keedhu. Mythology yelaam kadhai dhaan. adhula logic paakatheenga, just like you cant see logic in most of our tamil movies. neenga kaekkara doubts yelaam paatha aduthathu ‘Kamsan yaen avanga Akka and Maama-va ore cell la potaan knowing that their nth child (yethanaavadhu baa?) will kill him?’ nnu kaepeenga nenaikkren?

  25. maverick,

    the situation u tell is well logical but whatever i say is superstitious, not conceivable by a normal human. u have to accept that.

    apart, if u say all are kathai, then why should i belive it??? why cant i say all are burudaa and discard them?

    why these ‘baseless’ kathai’s are retold everywhere around me?

  26. Silics,

    One more, Puranangalla, Murugan visited palani, Kodaikanal, thiruthani, valli malai appaiyellam solraanga….Avar Tamil nattu kadavulla? State border kooda cross panni pona madhiri theriyallai? Indha madhiri kadhaigaloda ul nokkam than enna? Manushanai bayamuruthi Neriyoda vaazha vaikkanumnaa? Appo why did Murugan marry twice??

    But to warn u all, All of u stay in invisible mode ok..Andha super power namma ellaraiyum Sorgathuku kootittu poida porar..Naan varla paa.

  27. What is the purpose of a belief in God or a Higher Power?

    Did it come about because prehistoric man observed natural phenomena (like lightning, thunder etc) and ‘invented’ all-powerful beings who controlled these, as a way of explaining (away) these occurences and also assuaging his own fears about them?

    Or is there an innate capacity for ‘religiosity’ in humans? Some temporal lobe (brain) disorders can cause profound, religious experiences which “sufferers” describe as an ineffable sense of euphoria, understanding and oneness with ‘God”. (A similar experience has also been described by, ahem, users of recreational drugs).

    Whether religion, God etc are ‘man-made’ or not, the concept of Faith does appear to serve certain functions. It can be a very useful lattice on which one can pin, develop and nourish the qualities of Discipline and Morality. This can be faith in God, faith in the Absence of God or indeed, faith in the fact that we can never truly know the ‘Truth’.

    As an agnostic, I’m perfectly happy not knowing whether God exists or not. Ignorance is truly bliss, so to speak. I don’t feel the need to turn to a Higher Power at times of distress.

    Morality, however, is a slightly different kettle of fish (aahh-the fishy metaphor strikes again!). Does one have to be religious to be moral? Or can you be a ‘moral or ‘good’ person (whatever this may mean) while not believing in God? These are not new dilemmas and have been debated about for centuries.

    An excellent read on this last topic is a book called ‘Godless Morality’ by Frank Holloway, which I’d strongly recommend.

    And for those of a deconstructionist bent of mind (ie Derrida disciples) who want to ask ”is morality a valid entity? is that not ‘man-made’ as well? is there an absolute ‘good’ or ‘bad’? etc etc”, thats a whole new debate/thread folks, not sure if LG is willing to let this particular thread run for another decade!

    That was my tuppence worth, I’ll shut up now.

  28. Hi Geek,
    I concur with Srinivas.

    My trust in God enables me to overcome any
    tough situations in life.I too am not sure of his existence but think that the mythological stories and parables were created by man to enable pass on the moral ways which if practised would lead to the welfare of one and all.

    Different stories were told at different points in space and time. The stories associated with all kinds of religion just can’t be true,logically. But a trust and true understanding of why it was told can do wonders to one’s life IMHO.

    The intolerences , violence in the name of religion are perpetrated by fanatics who know not a thing about what true faith is.

  29. Hmmm…..Lazy am waiting for those ‘ayiram paer’ to pounce on me.

    And regarding atheism being a fad, whats wrong with having a fad? – if you are willing to extend hypocrisy as an argument, beware you are on my turf ๐Ÿ˜‰

  30. formation of world, reality in epic, ect all are different topics, iam explaining my theory, its abt existence of GOD.

    my concept of god is bit different. I belive god is there. and i dont belive that there is form or physical features for god. may be in past
    when epics happened, some ppl had superstitius powers, to say like krishna lifting a mountain, showing the galaxy in his mouth, and ravana to
    change his apperance and kinap sita ect but iam not clear on this[ultimately no one is] so i decided not to search god in epics and mythology, as i dont belive that god has a form, i dont belive the gods we see in temples.

    so when i go to temples i dont worship very deeply or i dont rely on temples for my worship. apart the temple enviroinment has lot of contradictions i will tell them later.

    in some cop mayer’s book i read mind has 3 parts. concious mind and subconcious mind are what we are aware of. he says there is third one
    called universal mind, but it is not limited in the brain[obviously how can it be ! ] so universal mind or almighty is everywhere and
    subconcious mind is a bridge between concious and universal mind, i felt this was 100% right and started to belive this form of theory. when
    u meditate, whatever u meditate upon, u will become that. this is the effect of pure meditation as read. suppose u medit on god, u get that qualities. if u medit on your goal, u reach. so whaat happens in meditation is that, u write ur expectaions to some powerful place called subconcious mind, what ever u keep in ur subcon mind u will achive it bcos its very powerful that it will drive push and force your concious mind to attain ur goal, it will giv u the power to withstand the oppositions. i also belive ‘anbe sivam’ concept but it dont mean that all aethists are good and religios persons are bad, as said by the lines of yaar yaar sivam song.

    questions i get on the hindu follower’s behaviors, opinions ect: –
    this may sound morelike seeing vivek commenting on gods, read on. i see temple as a place of worship. thats what said by my ancestors. but
    whaat is happening, today a temple is a hotelfastfood centrebusiness spot time pass centre theatre ect. i wonder why vadai’s athirsams laddus ect are sold in temple a place devoted only for soulworship. also joins flower business, cheppal protection business, tickets for archanais[for highly partial-spreading rich peoples], laddu centres, ect, to trouble more speakers and road blocked kacheris, are
    accompanying. really i wonder how peple get the mood of worship after these much hasseles. atleast, i dont get.

    i feel happi that indian govt allots holiday for functions like pongal, diwali, april 14, vijaya dhasami, none of these functions highlight
    any worship of specific persona gods, even in vijaya dhasami we give a rest for physical machines, apart of worship of the
    kalaivaanisaraswathi.

    i feel that our ancestors have not done a justice, they had just passed to us what they heared, added some of their own stories too but
    never told a clear religious way to live. lot of times has been spent in saivama vaishnavama,, iayaraa aiyangaaraa, chettiyaara mudhaliyaara
    ect and spend time in functons dumbly doing the sadangu’s without even knowing the meaning, then tasting vada payasam, cookery has been mingled with religion, hearing kadavul songs, and making koshti gaanams, ect as time evolved ppl for fun started to make fun on aspects of religion too, like the words govinda arogaraa are now purely a comedy word. todays generation dont find anything great in those words.

    so pure religion has lost, only sandangus exist, to worsen, politics caste ect came to spoil and divert the worshippers. ppl say more story
    on the per day collection of thirumala hundis. going to aiyappan mala has become a fashon, esp for auto srickshawalas, they casually smoke
    those days.

    but i appriciate common tamil womens finding peace in the puja room, temple and i praise their ability to worship inspite of all hasseles, but in that too when u go down to rural areas, women and men equally make a mess around religion. those are the birthplace of mooda naimbikkais. but i feel once the literacy spreades one gets rid of this things a bit.

    also i hate woshipping humans and dont belive they being the representatives of god. if those ppl are arrested, some ppl worry a deep, i
    wonder why u worry or rely or worship a person, between god and you, how many messengers u want to have?? these ppl will appear on tv every
    diwali and give some arulurais just followed by jothiga’s and asin’s kuthupaattu. i ask, cant u live without those arulurais, why should one
    preach u about god, how to worsip him ect, why u must learn sanskrti upanishams manthirams ect to reach god??? is god such demanding? then
    whaat abt the illeterate?

    in my puja room i would like to keep budda vivekananda gnandhi and baarathiyaar instead of the usual god pics. i love and like lord krishna
    but only for his joy spreading charecter, i like him and admire him as equal as vivekananda, not more than him or not less than him.

    will we form a clearpath for our future generatiions????? we have to eliminate all these craps or else they will eliminate us as a crap if u dont show ur son a clear path to follow.

  31. I have a yellow ribbon on the trunk of my modest Malibu reading: “Driving like a Patriot?” It’s for those many drivers behind me who believe they’re both Patriots and Sacrosanct.

    I find that most drivers sporting the regular ribbons have NOT evolved in a safe and sensible manner good for the community as a whole. Those drivers remind me of short-legged fish crawling out of the Galapagos lagoons.

  32. Hi LG,

    Excellent writeup in few little words explaining your stance.

    “Is God there or not” – Nice topic to argue but no side will be able to win at the end of the day or rather their life.

    I just remember the Doctor’s dialogue in the movie Sethu while suggesting the Ervadi option for his patient. “If i dont feel well, i take pills and go to bed. My wife will put a pack of vibudhi under my pillow. That is her belief. It does not matter whether the cure happens because of the pill or the vibudhi. What is more important is that i should get relieved of the ailment.”

    It is important for us to achieve what we expect in our life and it may be either through the belief in God or science or the mix of both.

    PS: Nice to see a number of “agnostics” like me in this section.

  33. LG, Do you know why you are so popular? Everyone who reads can relate to the articles so closely (agree or not, is different). You have that technique/balance. Soon, you can do this full time. You will become the best.

    Keep up your good work!

  34. I see someone talk about the fish and not wanting to drive with the fish behind your car. For a fact, there are a lot of people who do that here in SC and there are someone who have the name JESUS inscribed inside the fish.. so, me is now clueless.. is there are reason behind inscribing “JESUS” inside the fish??

  35. wow ……interesting comments ………someone’s literally opened the pandora’s box here ๐Ÿ˜› ….anyways ….your blog is different and nice …….Kudos !

  36. Nice article, LG.

    Probably our ancestors didn’t want to inhume the “humanity” in us and so they taught us to believe in god right from childhood with their so called dialogues “poi sollathe, sami kannai kuthum”. I have lied at many occasions and god never kuthified my eyes (though he gave me defective eyesight ๐Ÿ˜‰ )

    I’m an agnostic, just like most of us but believe that “everything – good or bad, happens for something GOOD”

    I remember an article, which I read long back and even saved it for an atheist friend of mine. I succeeded in making my atheist friend an agnostic like me..
    http://www.gitamrta.org/milkmiracle.htm

  37. god exits or not?
    the one million dolar question according to me…
    because everyone wants to earn that one million and the only known way for us is beleif, we will earn it someway, somehow, somewhere….
    For human being, if you have noticed from the earliest days itself when the primitive societies existed,the scholars were only of two kinds-either involved in teh filed ofastronomy or astrology..caz these were the ‘only’ two entities which was never explored and the more they explored the more they found!

    The main reason behind this was everyone wanted to know about their future and also whether what existed elsewhere outside the earth & who would come down from there?So for us the whole beleif of god existence comes into the picture only when we think about the future not certainly the present nor the past!

    On the other hand we also cannot beleive that he existed caz there are no physical traces..but again coming back to the whole discussion again i can say that beleif is supposed to be god….
    sounds confusing right? let me charify!

    Let me give you an small eg, you can take it as prof of existence of god by prof.swami dayanandha…

    discussing about the bang theory lets assume that there is god and he is very much existent even before the existence of the earth, so logically he created it, right?
    if so then where was god when he created the earth? was he is heaven? yeah most people agree because the only other entity that existed that time apart from hell was heaven,so there is no chance that he was in hell when the earth was made, beacsue he is god and he can live only in heaven, right?
    if that’s the case where was god when heaven was made? obviously not hell & earth wan’t created!
    so this eg proves us that god is earth and he made himself into one, like a spider.Spider weaves its own web, but from where the web comes from? from inside itself, from the saliva it makes, it’s something like that.
    Heaven and hell are two entities made as support for people after their death for them to live a good society life when they are alive. Are there any proff pf their existence? so why bother about something where we would be in after our death,rather think about about somewhere we we will be in before death, allthough we actually have existence of earth.

    So i say he(god)is the trees which we see, he is the perfume which we smell or even the air which we feel…but how can u say that? can caz he has created earth in such a way for us to live in it!

    So isn’t it simple!!!!!

  38. Guru nice one.
    But this question is to be asked BY ‘Guru’ to himself not to public. BTW many physicist have been inspired by Vedanta. Do read those, has many things common with physics and relativity.
    Anyway what is the meaning of the world ‘Kadavul in tamil means. It means ‘Kada’-go ‘Vul’-within
    Highest philosophies of Hinduism is Vedanta and it clearly says dont look for God in the external world but look within oneself. Infact all the eastern philosophies have this common thread.

    Remember each and every being in this world is part of the greater universe.

    Its weird but today morning,I wrote a quick tale about faith in my blog.

  39. Good one LG,
    To me there is no Atheist ( Non-Believer) ..By definition Atheist doesn’t *Believe* in existence of God.. He *Believes*..so any *Believer* is not Atheist.. he becomes a Romba kozhappuren ๐Ÿ™‚

    Its not necessarily one should believe in GOD..If you believe in yourself/actions/work..

    “Seiyum Thozile Dheivam”….

    To summarise..
    “In God We Trust”.. Naan sollale.. Namma Dollar Bill solluthu ๐Ÿ™‚

    -Subbu

  40. Great post Guru…
    Naanum same category thaan… Does God exist appadina, “theriyalappa” thaan… I wudnt call myself an agnostic though… Depends on how I define the entity “god”… If its something that gives inner peace, then I completely agree about some else’s view here… that I can find it in any form of art or work… If god is the supreme power, then probably I am a non believer…

    But then, the same middle class brought up holds good… Regular rituals edhuvum seyyaradhu kedayadhu… even swami velakku etharadhu kooda only when I feel like it… But if there is a crisis, the first thing I utter “pillayare ellam seriya pogattum, unakku oru vadal podaren”… Sigh!

    Ur post probably demands more introspection than jus opinions!:)

  41. SaiBaba?
    Amirtanaya….mayi?
    Kalki?
    What do you guys think of these people?
    Raj:
    “Or is there an innate capacity for ‘religiosity’ in humans?”
    Temporal lobe disorders eg. is good. but it doesnot address the innate religious capacity issue. B’cos consider the following q
    “Do you think Tarzan would have such religious feelings if he has temporal lobe disorder?”

    silicon sillu:
    “i feel that our ancestors have not done a justice, they had just passed to us what they heared, added some of their own stories too but
    never told a clear religious way to live”
    My ans:
    This is b’cos Hinduism is not a religion at all in the same sense as christianity, islam or any other religion.
    and I really dont understand how the universal consciousness or collective consciousnees concept address the issue at hand?

    My quote for the day:
    “Did man create god to have a reason to live?”
    – Dostoevsky

  42. TTR, You last lines were true.

    Barry, I kind of agree and disagree to those wise words. Thats my whole confusion about.

    //Jacky aka Sriks said – To me, A brief history of time only reaffirms that there’s no definite scientific answer that “There’s no god”.//

    Jacky, Wow !!

    //Raj said – And for those of a deconstructionist bent of mind (ie Derrida disciples) who want to ask ”is morality a valid entity? is that not ‘man-made’ as well? is there an absolute ‘good’ or ‘bad’? etc etc”, thats a whole new debate/thread folks, not sure if LG is willing to let this particular thread run for another decade!//

    I’m open for that. Is morality a valid entity is criss crossing somewhere with the existentialism. And I open any time to discuss more on the theory.

  43. //Mutrupulli said – And if one studies Shankara closely, Advaitha sort of preaches atheism only.//

    Mutrupulli, Bang on !! Bang on !! Thats exactly I asked Nilu what he feels about Advaitha or even Dvaitha for that matter. This time we are together on that. And Advaitha is much thought provoking than Existentialism or vice versa.

    In practical life both are applicable and most of us follow both at various points of time.

  44. ‘apart, if u say all are kathai, then why should i belive it??? why cant i say all are burudaa and discard them?

    Sillu
    You could do whatever you want. Nobody forces you (except your parents and the society when you were a kid). Now that you are mature enough to make a choice, you can pick your own way except that die-hard believers like a few parents would emotionally blackmail you to do certain things & rituals that would appear senseless to you. And you too would also be doing that just for the saking of pleasing them because you dont wanna see them disappointed. But if it is a case of mature parents or elders who do not force their beliefs and rituals to their grown up kids, you are lucky!!!

  45. your blog sucks..i donno what you do ..but i discovered something..you are one among the IT geeks? from India staying in US and scribbling any damn thing that pops up ur brain.A blogger has to be religion free,caste free and has blogging community just become one big mutual admiration society?.

    Have read enough science like most of us – traveled around the mountain of Thiruvannamalai several times – – tasted Margazhi’s suda suda vaen pongal in perumal koil with the prabandams reverberating in the temple – carried the smallest idol of chandikeshwarar on my shoulders during urchavams – understood the essence of Bhagavath Gita – read enough Indian mythologies in Amar Chitra Katha

    At times, the poonal pops up and reminds, Ambi !! the creation and destruction of universe according to Hinduism is one day of Brahmaย’s life and we are just living when Brahman let out a breath of fresh air from his nose.

    Whatsoever, I may not go ahead and tear out the Darwin fish from my car. Free speech.

    I wrote this last night but didn’t hit the publish button. After shutting down my computer, I went to apply a blotch of vibuthi on my forehead and prayed, Nalam Tharum Sollai Kandukondain Narayana Enum Naamam, twelve times before I went to bed. Thinking whether god exists or not, I went into deep sleep.

    Hey why you guys are like this?.Why dont you be more generic than caste-centric tryin to satisfy the taste buds of caste fanatics amidst millions of indians who DONT belong to your caste.

    How many of you have written on

    millions of children dying or will die out of starvation in Africa( the estimate this year is going to be 20,000 )

    how many of you even bothered to write abt this one?

    Gohana, August 31: In one of the worst ever instances of caste violence in Haryana, upper caste villagers belonging to the Jat community in Gohana village near Sonepat burnt down 60 houses of Dalits today.

    How many of you can write about US policies against 3rd world countries bravely.?

    When I say ‘u’ its not the bloggers(Offcourse there are really good bloggers ) on the whole..stupid people like you who think they r great writers..omg..

    All you F…yap abt is your stupid meetings with ur fellow (India go US dic..heads).gettin exited abt ur decent discovery of masal vadai gettin served in a food joint..using all ‘junk’ US ‘jargons’..

    if you write abt charles darwin..dont talk abt ‘vibuthi’ and when u write abt ‘vibuthi’ dont try to identify yourself as a ‘balanced ”art of living’ pro.

    Hey at the end of the day..you guys cannot live without ‘vattal kulambu and thayir saadham’.

    Please understand ur link http://www.lazygeek.net cant identify the person to which religion or caste he belongs to.

    Living in US for the past 15 years, i have seen only tamils talking in ‘pure english- The US way..

    how many of you can write boldly about your weaknesses..?

    Try to be more professional then cocooning yourself to satisfy the reading pleasure of some ‘vibuthi and thread guys’..I used to be a fan of your blog durin ur early days..but nowadays ..it really really sucks..somewhere r rather..you identify urself with that crowd for no reasons..think abt it..make reading a pleasure..not boring..and dont use this freedom of expression to simply write down your thoughts with ‘here and there’ english jargons..make it simple and unleash your creativity..final word..get out of that NAMMA AATHU PAYYAN STATES LA irrukan cob-web.

    A real ย‘aspire to be writerย’ will never do that. I donย’t have hatred towards any community. Nonetheless of late I see that in your blogs..

    Well i know your ‘die hard fans’ will stone me to death..but i got to do this..i was really concerned

  46. your blog sucks..i donno what you do ..but i discovered something..you are one among the IT geeks? from India staying in US and scribbling any damn thing that pops up ur brain.A blogger has to be religion free,caste free and has blogging community just become one big mutual admiration society?.

    Have read enough science like most of us – traveled around the mountain of Thiruvannamalai several times – – tasted Margazhi’s suda suda vaen pongal in perumal koil with the prabandams reverberating in the temple – carried the smallest idol of chandikeshwarar on my shoulders during urchavams – understood the essence of Bhagavath Gita – read enough Indian mythologies in Amar Chitra Katha

    At times, the poonal pops up and reminds, Ambi !! the creation and destruction of universe according to Hinduism is one day of Brahmaย’s life and we are just living when Brahman let out a breath of fresh air from his nose.

    Whatsoever, I may not go ahead and tear out the Darwin fish from my car. Free speech.

    I wrote this last night but didn’t hit the publish button. After shutting down my computer, I went to apply a blotch of vibuthi on my forehead and prayed, Nalam Tharum Sollai Kandukondain Narayana Enum Naamam, twelve times before I went to bed. Thinking whether god exists or not, I went into deep sleep.

    Hey why you guys are like this?.Why dont you be more generic than caste-centric tryin to satisfy the taste buds of caste fanatics amidst millions of indians who DONT belong to your caste.

    How many of you have written on

    millions of children dying or will die out of starvation in Africa( the estimate this year is going to be 20,000

    how many of you even bothered to write abt this one?

    Gohana, August 31: In one of the worst ever instances of caste violence in Haryana, upper caste villagers belonging to the Jat community in Gohana village near Sonepat burnt down 60 houses of Dalits today.

    How many of you can write about US policies against 3rd world countries bravely.?

    When I say ‘u’ its not the bloggers on the whole..stupid people like you who think they r great writers..omg..

    All you F…yap abt is your stupid meetings with ur fellow (India go US dic..heads).gettin exited abt ur decent discovery of masal vadai gettin served in a food joint..using all ‘junk’ US ‘jargons’..Have u ever seen a white man .talkin ..mame..vaa machi..?

    Living in US for the past 15 years, i have seen only tamils talking in ‘pure english- The US way..

    how many of you can write about your weaknesses..?

    Try to be more professional then cocooning yourself to satisfy the reading pleasure of some ‘vibuthi and thread guys’..I used to be fan of your blog durin ur early days..but nowadays ..it really really sucks..somewhere r rather..you identify urself for no reasons..think abt it..make reading a pleasure..not boring..and dont use this freedom of expression to simply write down your thoughts with ‘here and there’ english jargons..make it simple and unleash your creativity..final word..get out of that NAMMA AATHU PAYYAN STATES LA irrukan cob-web.

    A real ย‘aspire to be writerย’ will never do that. I donย’t have hatred towards any community. Nonetheless of late I see that in your blogs..

  47. From the discussion thread, i could only assume that most of us are frogs in well, trying to make judgements from what little knowledge we have and assuming the little idiosyncracies of ourselves to be universal. Identifyig mostly with western intellectuals and having not read what our own great men thought abt such questions and if at all, just a little intellectual musing here and there of advaita, brahman, nirvana and all that stuff. I think the question whether god exists or not cannot be answered intellectually at all, for reason cannot reach there. Knowledge liberates the subject but always binds the object. So there can be no knowledge of god.And thats why the intellects of the west after a point had to fall back on agnosticm. But its the not case with us.
    But what would this discussion and argumentation do. I am just pasting an interesting lecture by Swamiji.

    http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_8/lectures_and_discourses/is_vedanta_the_future.htm

  48. Anniyan Sir, It’s Ok. Cool down first. I know why you are upset and I have a ‘real’ reason to explain my stand.

    It’s completely possible that I can write off without a single reference to the religion where I come from. To caste where I am born but that would not do justice to the post I was attempting to write. I can show you only four places where the reference to the community where I come from is there in this blog. And I have purposefully done it because the post asked for it. I have tried to avoid references in the past in many posts. This one does need it.

    I think you have taken the literal meaning of the post. The post subtly hints at the kind of confusion, an ‘aathu payyan’ goes through as he grows up. If you tell me that I should be writing without references to the caste where I was born, I should again refer to you in Kamal’s Nayagan tone. ‘Avangala thirundha sollu Naan thirundaren’

    Jokes apart, get this clearly, nobody who hasn’t born in this caste can write about what I had written. If you read Aathavan’s ‘Enn Peyar Ramaseshan’ you would know agree to what I say. And nowhere in this post I have gone on, ‘this is the best caste of the world’ types showing I am not a fanatic.

    The mere fact that you point me to sa source of news and request me to write about it make me come to conlusions that you are certainly a fanatic of that caste and you are just angry that something like this got showcased here. We all go through it. Cool it.

    I can for sure say you haven’t lived in US for 15 years. Thats my nethiadi !! Cool of and start a blog on your favorite group if you need.

  49. Anniyan, Going by your allegations I should have regarded ‘you’ [aniyan] as the best movie ever made as it makes a subtle hint at ‘branhmincan violence’ and ‘the rise of brahmins'[as someone wrote an intellectual review in a tamil magazine].

    I didn’t. Isn’t that an evidence for you ? Think about it without any pre-concieved notions. Think dude !!

  50. Guru,
    The reason i felt it was an excellent write up was because it more or less mirrored my feelings on the subject (the only difference being that i’ve stopped applying “viboothi” ๐Ÿ™‚ ).
    Being a die-hard fan of Kamal, your post reminded me of the exchange between Kamal and Poornaviswanadhan in Mahanadhi
    PV: “Nee naatheegana aatheegana?”
    KH: “Ungalakku edhuva irundha souriyappadum?”

    And don’t you think the film “Anbe Sivam” gives a new dimension to this dichotomy? It straddles the worlds of both the believers and non-beleivers.

    I think trying to find a “binary” answer would be futile and not pragmatic. In the end, its upto the individual to CHOOSE whether he’s going to don the coat of religion or not. A confident atheist is better than an unsure theist and vice versa!

  51. God is something that has been driven into our mind, when we were young and it will be hard for any one to completely drop it and think on the other side.

    We dont have any problems in beleiving that a car can run on petrol, signal could be sent over the satellite or cables and all the basics of science when it comes to surgeory or genetics.But we are not ready to beleive science when it comes to darwin theory and astrology.

    And iam sick of this group of people who keep talking about the inner meanings of the habits and rituals of their forefathers.Take the example of “viboothi”, Well what was the major change that happened because of hindus were wearing ash everyday.Did they get some kind of horns.Please stop romanticizing the habits of your forefathers.What ever they did was because of there limited knowledge during the time period in which they lived, most of them are highly irrelevant today.

    If you are not ready to take science in its entirity, what ever you say are reasons and excuses for yourself to escape reality.

    Till then like the cat story** we will do things blindly without thinking too much.

    **In a marriage funtion, the bridegroom sees that a cat was disturbing the marriage arrangements.He goes and ties the cat to a pole.From then on it became a habit for people of his community to tie a cat on the pole on the marriage day.

  52. Senthil, I have read the short story you had commented before in Manasey Relax Please !!.

    I have to accept not everything I feel has come out in this post. Also nothing is written here to get a dozen opinions and then take the best. Its more of a introspection than a public debate. One does what he believes.

    you said //Well what was the major change that happened because of hindus were wearing ash everyday//.

    I don’t know but it gives hope to a million people on their pains of life. It can be false hope in the end or not but it helps.

    BTW, if i can ask you, you write a blog what was the major change it did to you. If you have answers people who were it also have similar answers.

    I hate crossing one’s Karma. And hence I’m questioning myself not others.

  53. Senthil, BTW I’ve read of enough of Communist and other ‘paguthraivu’ writings.

    By now one would be sure there is no god if I blindly believe what they say. I’m the ‘doubting’ thomas here, if you know who thomas was doubting.

  54. The trend surfaces again. What’s with every angst loaded disturbed mind calling himself/herself Anniyan? Bahhh… this is a hype-fest that reminds me of the Remo character in the aforementioned crap fest of a movie and makes me want to puke.

    First of all, I have an advice for all such wanna-bes. Choose your pseudonyms carefully. Such frivolous references to pseudo-realistic characters destroy your chance to send your message across (as noble as it might be) even before you launch your exercise. For pointers, look at my name here and my email addy. I am trying to drive my point across and put you technique down. So you won’t find a direct reference to my blog which is as frivolous as they can be.

    And then, if you are “very concerned” with society and its evils, your views are strong and border on slander, you should also be bold enough to leave your full real name and maybe an email so that the person(s) you are addressing might be able to reply to you in a fitting manner. Also make sure you don’t leave comments in duplicate and triplicate. You see, that’s bad etiquette (if done knowingly) and by some accounts, might qualify to be classified as spam.

    -From a concerned Indian citizen, and a proud S(h)anian, who has been in the US for the past 4 years only and is concerned that people are taking Tamil masala movies so seriously that they are losing track of reality and wishes that such people would lighten up, particularly in other people’s online spaces.

    LG: Again deletion material. On second thoughts, you might think about letting it stay for a day or two.

  55. Guru,
    I was just answering in general, wasn’t pointing at you.Now that u have asked me, let me answer you.First of all iam not clear where u stand here??.Ur not expressing things in black and white.Would it be wrong if i say u r in a confused state.

    You are branding nilu as an atheist because he is not following the rituals.So does that mean you are a beleiver for following those??.At the same time you are saying that you are a doubting thomas.Iam lost here.

    My blog has bought lot of changes in me.Iam sharing and gaining knowledge.Opposing arguments are not totally lost, everything becomes a seed for a new thought process in my mind.that is a major change, that is not just my blog, ur blog and everybody’s blog is doing that to me.

    “By now one would be sure there is no god if I blindly believe what they say”.

    So you are not blindly beleiving the pagutharivu stuff and blindly beleiving the religious fantacies??.

  56. senthil,
    //But we are not ready to beleive science when it comes to darwin theory and astrology//

    very true. but why astrology?

    anniyan,
    //..somewhere r rather..you identify urself for no reasons..think abt it.//

    I too have the same feeling.

    LG,
    //nobody who hasn’t born in this caste can write about what I had written. If you read Aathavan’s ‘Enn Peyar Ramaseshan’ you would know agree to what I say.//

    I have not read the book. but can you explain it?

    //I hate crossing one’s Karma. And hence I’m questioning myself not others.//

    What is this karma stuff? does it come outside the ‘agnostic’ sphere?like senthil I am lost here.

    aNTi,
    is it anniyan’s bad posting etiquette that makes his post a deletion material or its content?

  57. >>Take the example of “viboothi”, Well what was >>the major change that happened because of >>hindus were wearing ash everyday

    First, what do you expect to happen? Get rich? Get powerful? Get a big harlem?
    Yes none of them happens and probably none can ever be directly attributed to the mere applying of vibhooti.The act is symbolic and is a ritual.

    I can tell you a couple of reasons. First most of the southerners were shaivites and worshipped shiva. Shiva being the god of death is mythologically assumed to be roaming in cemetries smeared with ashes and being his followers, we also applied the same. It is an opportunity to remember shiva or to a true devotee it gives happiness following his act.

    Second, to understand the mortality of the human self, some used to meditate on dead bodies. So then as a unwanted thought arises,they just look at the dead body and say “Here was a man who had all these pleasures, but now his flesh is rotten and so and so..”. As time went on, it was replaced by merely applying ashes instead of this practice.

    Third, it means that the desires must be burnt like ashes to be free. And every time you apply, it is an occassion to remember it.

    There are many more reasons for this practice. But to answer your question, yes it is a ritual and does not bring any material gains, but to call it a superstition is plain ignorance. If you can get to the principle in a second, god bless you, but some weaklings like us need these rituals. If you can close your eyes and can shut out the mind in a second, great! but some people need rituals like this, music and all such paraphrenalia to concentrate the mind a little and or practice discrimination.

    And even today when i put in on my forehead i feel a thrill. It gives me an idea of piety. I don’t do it bcos it will get me anything or make some nerve on my head function better,that is materialism. It is not chicken-heartedness and superstition. It is just concretising some subtle ideas into human emotions and thoughts that cannot be grasped as such by fools like me.

    Tall talk abt science but where is the intellectual integrity before coming to this stupid conclusion that all my forefathers were a bunch of fools, who to propiate gods did all these stuff out of fear or out of some local superstition. They were even bolder and called this worshipping of body and senses as the biggest superstition of all. Probably we would appreciate them if Kant or Schopenhauer had written an essay on the philiospohical origins of vibhooti, but why should we care to read a vivekananda or aurobindo as they were mere idealists.

    There is a difference between sound criticing and frivolous opinion.

  58. My Opinion: God/Gods are the imagination of some of our forefathers. The fear of god helped keep some people in check. The Hope that god was there helped some people move on…. and so on.
    So the entity ‘God’ is necessary but some people simply overdo it…
    Needless expenses on temple festivals when it could be used to feed the needy.
    Needless bloodshed in the name of religion when all religions preach peace… and so on

    I’m a firm beleiver in Darwinism!

    BTW nice BLOG

  59. TTR,
    mistake, wanted to say something like astronomy.

    Fakir,
    i didn’t mean to say that viboothi didn’t give u any material gain.I just mentioned the irony of what you have painstakingly explained.

    Yes it signifies the impermanence of the physical self etc etc.Hinduism is filled with these kind of imaginary feel good theories and thanxs for stopping with only 3 reasons.I saw a picture of a group of african primitives living in the jungles of congo carrying a big bone with them. NOw i understand the idea behind the bone. They were using it to show everyone the impermanence of life.well i cna also make up stories.you want more i can give you tons of them.But what is the impact of it,if everyone understands that then there should be so much forgiving and peace in Tamil nadu.

    you need to think rationally and be in reality to understand the truth. otherwise the purpose is defeated, the generation to come after us will be doing the same and will never come out of this circle.

    “If you can get to the principle in a second, god bless you, but some weaklings like us need these rituals.”

    Yeah some weaklings are beheading 10 yr old girls to get god’s blessing.some weaklings are playing with snake and fire to get the blessings.yeah we need rituals.

    “All my forefathers were a bunch of fools, who to propiate gods did all these stuff out of fear or out of some local superstition. They were even bolder and called this worshipping of body and senses as the biggest superstition of all”.

    Iam not saying that your forefathers are stupid.I said that they did the best with the information available to them.But you are not thinking and concluding anything new with the information available to you.You are still following the oldest religion to the book with the latest information available.

    If you didn’t know what a LINGAM is look closer.The number one hindu god is nothing but body ,senses and pleasure.

  60. TTR, Everyone born has a purpose or Karma thats very unique to him. Others taking a wild guess or directing what that someone has to do is crossing one’s Karma.

    This is the westerners usage of Karma but what the mythological Krishna(am being cautious here) or even vivekananda defined as Karmayogam. Can take a cue here to existentialism and explain you how they both ‘may’ mean the same thing. But it might be offtopic.

    BTW, I suggest you read Enn Peyar Ramaseshan than me talking about it. I am sure its worth the hype that I give.

  61. Anti, No deletion material whatsoever. Go on. You see our so-called-anniyan has used India go US dic..heads. What can be a more generalised name than that. You and ME shouldn’t be even responding back to him.

  62. Senthil, I did brand Nilu as an Atheist. Thats not a bad word, right ?

    All I am saying is because of the confusion whether god exists or not, I’m becoming the ‘doubting’ thomas. what else does agnostic means !!

  63. Senthil,
    Thanks for pointing out to me that the bone carriers in congo could as well claim their name to fame in having philosophised the impermenance of life. Probably they are doing some stem cell research too, the language of which is unfortunately unknown to us and as a fact, it can neither be proved nor disproved. Taking all as story, we could as well ignore all the motives of the past generations as either ignorant or unknown and discard them all. It doesn’t matter if thirumoolar writes an exquisite philosohpy on the subject or whole generations try to live the idea and die probably as unaccomplished hypocrites, they are all the same as the mumbo-jumbo of africa. Given the grosser effects to be the same, the causes must be the same- good rationalism!! It doesn’t hurt them and sure doesn’t hurt us.

    “But what is the impact of it,if everyone understands that then there should be so much forgiving and peace in Tamil nadu.”

    I coudln’t understand where this really slips in. Assuming you meant that applying vibhooti did not make people more kinder and peace loving, i find it difficult to relate. It is understood that there are lot of hyprocites among ourselves ( I wouldn’t be wasting my time on this blog if i am really spiritual). But it is not the mistake of the principle but the application of it and it is to be found everywhere. Can you say that merely applying vibhooti made anyone more vile and brute?

    “Hinduism is filled with these kind of imaginary feel good theories”
    “you need to think rationally and be in reality to understand the truth”

    what makes you think that religion is not rational. That is a fatal assumption by itself without following any of the rigours of the traditional rationalist. Yes there is faith and for those who do not want mere faith, there is reason too. But not the reason as known as materialism. But the reasoning is more negative as god could not be reasoned out. Hence the reasoning turns towards proving the world as either filled with god or as totally void by itself as the nihilists would say. When you say “reality”, that is their basic question. what is this reality? May be you are satisfied with what your senses project as reality but some many not be. The boldness was that they followed this question to the end instead of going back to bed with thayir sadham filled through neck.

    “Yeah some weaklings are beheading 10 yr old girls to get god’s blessing.some weaklings are playing with snake and fire to get the blessings.yeah we need rituals”

    Again such are local superstitions and not to be identified with religion. It is there with everything. It is good as the childish argument that science was responsible for the nuclear holocaust in japan. I do not mean to say that religion is without superstitions, there are lot of them with us, especially hindus, as lot of energy has gone into this question. But are we to throw away everything for a few mistakes. If religion had not been there, there would have not been all these kilings, true, and more true is, if there was no mankind, we would have absolutely no killing at all.

    “I said that they did the best with the information available to them.But you are not thinking and concluding anything new with the information available to you.You are still following the oldest religion to the book with the latest information available.”

    That is the problem. Evolution can only be in forms and not in principles and truths. They are as old as mountains. All this discovering has only been in the sphere of material plane and the highest truth in religion has been arrived at already. If you want to see the development of religious ideas, you must study hinduism. Yes ,all primitive practices and nature worjship is there. Fear of god and trying to please him with meat and women has been there. But after some time it gradually goes away and the idea of a ruler god comes and then the impersonal. So did god change at any point of time. No, it was only our idea of him. And after attaining the impersonal, there is no scope at all for improvement with new information or anything, however depressing it might be to realise that we might have to crack the same nut henceforth. But it is the spiritual experience of the individual that is going to be different.

    Our forefathers realised that all this science is in the sphere of mind and the bigger question would be the validity of mind itself rather than its manifestations. But there is nothing against science in it. Hinduism seeks truth alone and would have nothing against science. Only probably sometimes it arrogantly calls science as lower truth and laughs at its vanities if at all there is higher and lower truth. Whatever truth within this network of space, time and causation can only be called lower truth as the depend on the former three for its existence and not absolute by itself.

    “If you didn’t know what a LINGAM is look closer.The number one hindu god is nothing but body ,senses and pleasure.”

    Again, it shows the crap that we have swallowed from the west. There is a detailed explanation of it as the “yupa sthamba” and its associated meaning, but probably you would dismiss it as another story invented by the brahmins to cover up the facts.

    Ok, all said and done, nothing can be proved. Spirit cannot be proved by matter however we might try. It is for each individual to find it out for himself when the question comes “Is this real?”.

  64. I spent lot of time on this topic long ago, and searched internet but nothing really attracted me as this blog did.

    I read every single postings on this blog. Kudos to LazyGeek and other supporters for sharing their thoughts.

    Thank you,
    Muthu.

  65. Fakir,
    First of all Excellent post.well written one.
    my reply.

    As i said before i dont have anything against thorumoolar or any other guy who lived in a dark age.My question is simple, why do need a religious philosophy to solve practical prblms.Same holds for the vibothi thing also.See we have found out one reason or the other for any thing that wont smell and can be applied on the body.I think it is very primitive to sit on a dead body amd meditate to understand the impermanence of life and i see viboothi as a modernanized, modified exentition of it.

    “I do not mean to say that religion is without superstitions, there are lot of them with us, especially hindus, as lot of energy has gone into this question. But are we to throw away everything for a few mistakes.”

    Hinduism is a big joke.There is no apt definition to fit every one into one statement.It has been customized so much so that it has become a monster with billion mistakes.you are talking about the 1% of hindus who are seeking the supposed higher truth but at teh ground level 95% of the people are blind belivers, peopl who think cow as god and prey when they step on a book.

    “Hinduism seeks truth alone and would have nothing against science”
    You talk about hinduism as the higher truth, but with all the rituals and even say viboothi u r telling million lies to attain the so called higher truth.And u purpose is defeacted there itself.Forget the existence of the higher truth, people are still struck in the falses that were propogated to attain the truth.

    Imagine if i was an average poet living in 300 B.C.If i would have written some scriptures blabbering abstract things mentioning god here and there which i didn’t have any clue, what you guys would be doing now will be, trying to make sense out of those blabberings, rather than see it as complete crap.your belief and faith system will make a reason and conclusion out of my every stupid remark.we are so in the imaginary world that we cannot beleive taht there cold be a lunatic or an aerage poet in 300 B.C.Or for that matter i was a theif who one day comes into the village and says that i got enlightened while i was pissing at the Banyan tree .I impress a king who madeit compulsory for the citizens of this state to follow my teachings, a new religion is born and for generations after generations people will be fighting for that stupid religion that was formed when i was pissing.and the banyan tree becomes the sacred symbol and object of workship for the religion.No offence here.Just want to drive the point that we are so scard of death that we are ready to make meaning out of anything that gives us the smallest of hope.The talk on realtiy and higher truth are just the manifestations of hope to live for eternity.

    So if someone asks me to read thirumooar(i assume this guy wrote something good to attain a better life) or thiruvasagam or some other scriptures.I would say No thanxs i will better read “thirukural”.I think u can get all the teachings of geetha or any other holy book in thirukurral itself, without putting urselves into a fantasy world of god and goddess.

  66. Senthil,
    I can argue back on how hinduism seeks to permeate all spheres of life and the play of persons and principles within hinduism, but surely this argumentation wouldn’t take us anywhere. At the best, it can tickle our egos and may be the intellect.

    Have a good labour day weekend.

  67. LG/others, just curious. I am not a great philosophy reader or anything. But out of curiosity, have you read Ayn Rand’s books? Philospophy is another grey area like the atheist/agnostic issue. What is your take on her philosophy? Why should I read her(or any other philosopher’s books?(apart from the interesting stories/writing/literary aspects)

  68. Hey LG,
    This post was really cool & I have posted the comment already. One more thing I need to add on is, it has caused tremendous responses. Just when I was glimpsing your blog, saw the count of comments as 100. So, wanted to be the 101.

    Congratulations for hitting a century. Great!!

  69. Fakir,
    why should religion be allowed to permeate all spheres of life?.I dont think there is a necesity for it.yes the discussions on the existenc eof the god wont lead anywhere.u also have a great weekend.

    Guru,
    Agnostic does not mean just doubting god.Being a agnostic is far greater than what you think.Agnosticism is also called weak atheism.It is more closer to atheism than theism.You celebrate krishna jayanthi , change ur poonal on avinni avittam and say prayers before you go to bed.No offence but you are just another god beleiver who has come across some scientific information. That’s all.You havn’t even processed the information to come to any conclusion.

  70. Hi,

    I would request the writter of this article to pls read “Purusha Suktham” and then decide on creation of the Universe. Sir, who in the Hindu world told you that Brahma breaths and we live. If you want to write something just for heck of it pls don’t write.

    I have in my life never heard of any such even country side story about our existance.

    “Purusha Shuktham” is all about Big Bang theory and the great energy that bust into the various forms and gases and other things and material is the Purusha himself, that energy is described as Narayana. and hence in Hinduism we are all from the same sole, either animals, or treas or stones or fire or spcae etc, we are all from the same energy that was the basic source of the univer creation.

    Can you pls compare the 10 avathras, it did start in water maschyavathara (fish) then Korrma Avathara (Land and Water, turtle), then Varaha Avathara (Land Animal), then Narasimha Avathara (Animal and Human mix) and then Vamana avathara (young human), then Parashurama (agressive rather abit wild man), then rama (more civilized man), then Krishna (civilized but inteligent) .. can’t you trace evolution here pls.

  71. Wah Fakir Brother,

    I just enjoyed readingw hat you write. In the entire blog I felt you were the one who made some real sense.

    Thanks

  72. Silicon Sillu,

    Hinduism is not based on the 2 great epics ramayana and mahabaratha, ti is based on Vedas, Upanishads and Vedanthas.

    What is wrong is telling words like “Lokha samastha Sukhino Bavanthu” .. let the whole world be happy, isn’t it a good wish a good prayer …

    If you are not aware, if you are ignorant and if you fail to see, sir it is your mistake, every litreature of every religion is available every where today, read them, then tell what is based on what.

  73. The twist at the end was good. As for myself, my philosophy is ‘Oh, God? Let Him be’.

    IMHO, more crime has been done in the names of religion and god more than any other.

    Humans created God to overcome fear. The best thing each person can do is to pray to himself – to be a better person, to do greater things and to overcome failures.

    But I believe in this thing called God Stick. Everytime you make a mistake it comes close to hit you. It might fail to hit you this time. But it will do sometime. That’s what keeps me awake and off the wrong path.

  74. Hi Guys,

    I have been thru’ the whole discussion and would like to bring this article to all of your attention…

    You can also find this at:
    “http://www.barnett.sk/software/sos/osho/osho-talks/wisdom28.htm#osho4”
    Osho,
    You said the other day that no one is interested any more in questions like “Who created the universe?” But a recent edition of Time magazine devoted considerable space to an article entitled “In the Beginning: God and Science.”
    The basic them of the article was that science and religion have been brought close together by the “big bang” theory of creation in which the universe is supposed to have come into being through a vast fireball explosion, fifteen or twenty billion years ago.
    Time says that this sounds very much like the story which the old testament has been telling all along, namely that the universe began in a single flashing act of creation.
    What is wrong with the hypothesis that the universe was created, that it had a beginning? And why do you assert that it did not? Is it not a step in the right direction when science and religion agree?

    Subhuti, the first thing to remember is, for three hundred years religion has been losing its territory continuously. First, religion tried to destroy science. It was unable to do it — because you cannot destroy truth, and science was truer, as far as the objective world is concerned, than religion. In fact religion has no authority to say anything about the objective world.

    When you are ill you go to the physician, you don’t go to the poet. The poet has no authority; he may be a great poet but that is irrelevant when you are ill. He may be a great poet, but when something goes wrong in your bathroom you don’t call him, you call a plumber. The plumber may not be a poet at all, but the plumber is relevant there. You don’t call Albert Einstein — he may be a great physicist, but what does he know about plumbing?

    Religion was proving to be utterly wrong. It was wrong about the objective world. Once science started investigating the objective, organized religion was very much afraid. If there had been a Jesus he would not have been afraid, he would simply have said: “About the objective, listen to science.” If a Buddha was there he would have said: “Listen to science.”

    But there was no Buddha in the West where science was growing. And people like Galileo and Copernicus and Kepler were tortured in every possible way because organized religion, the church, became very much afraid: what they were saying was going against their scriptures.

    The scientists were saying that the sun does not go around the earth — and The Bible says it does. The scientists were saying the earth goes around the sun…now, if The Bible can be wrong in one thing, then why not in others? That was the problem, that was the fear.

    The person who said that the earth goes around the sun was called to the court by the Vatican. Galileo had to appear, in his old age — he was more than seventy, ill, on his deathbed, but he was forced to come to the court to declare there that whatsoever he had said is wrong.

    He must have been a man of great humor. He said: “Yes, if it offends you, I declare that whatsoever I have said is wrong — that the earth does not go around the sun, but the sun goes around the earth.”

    Everybody looked happy, and then Galileo said: “But sir, nothing will change by my statement. The earth will still go round and round the sun — my statement makes no difference! If you are offended by my statement I can take it back, I can refute it. If you want me to write another treatise, I can write that too. But nothing will change by that. Who cares about my statement? Neither the sun nor the earth.”

    Organized religion tried to kill science — they could not, because truth cannot be killed.

    Slowly slowly science has possessed the whole territory of the objective world. Then the natural tendency of mind…science started claiming that which could not be claimed by it. Science created the same fallacy as organized religion, which was saying: “About the objective world also, we are right.” They were not. They are right about the subjective world; about the interiormost being of existence they are right. But they are not right about the circumference of it, that is not their dimension. But they were claiming that they are right about both.

    The same started happening with physicists, chemists and other scientists. In the beginning of this century, science became very arrogant — the same type of arrogance, just the authority shifted from the priests to the scientists. The scientists started saying: “There is no God and there is no soul and there is no consciousness, and all that is rubbish.”

    This type of arrogance has always remained with man. We have not yet learned anything. This is again the same game being played. When science became very arrogant, naturally religion became defensive. It was losing, it became defensive. So anything that is discovered by science religion tries to appropriate. It tries somehow to make it fit with itself, because the only possibility for it to survive now is if it proves itself to be scientific.

    In the beginning it was just the opposite. If a scientist was to survive, the only way was to prove that whatsoever he has found is according to the scriptures, that it proves the scriptures, that it is not against.

    Now the whole thing is just vice-versa. Now if religion wants to exist in the world, it has continuously to look up to science. Whatsoever science discovers, religion immediately jumps upon and tries to prove: “This is what we have been saying all along.”

    This “big bang” theory has nothing to do with the religious attitude and the religious theory of creation. In the big bang theory there is no God, it is all an accident; it is not creation, remember, because there is no creator in it.

    But religion is very defensive, continuously searching for anything to cling to. The big bang theory says that in a sudden explosion, in a great flash of light, the world was created. Jump on it; you can always find some way, some logical way. You can say: “Yes, this is right, this is what we have been saying all along. God in the beginning said: ‘Let there be light’ — and now the theory says there was a great explosion, the world was suddenly created.”

    But the basic thing is missing — don’t be deceived. Religion has been saying that God said: “Let there be light.” The base is not the light, the base is God saying: “Let there be light.” That God is missing in the big bang theory: there is no God, it was a sudden accident, not creation.

    And one more thing: this big bang theory is not totally accepted, there are many other theories.

    These are all guesses; they are not proved yet, nothing is proved. In fact I don’t think that it can ever be proved how the world came into existence. It is impossible, because nobody was there to witness it, you cannot find an eyewitness, so all that they can do will be just guesswork.

    And it happened fifteen or twenty billion years ago. You cannot even be certain whether Krishna ever existed or not, just five thousand years ago. You cannot be certain even about Jesus, whether he was really an historical person or is just a myth — and he was only two thousand years ago. Do you think you can be certain about something that happened twenty billion years ago? All guesses.

    And still I say the world was never created, there was no beginning.

    Why do I say that there was no beginning? Subhuti, it is so simple. Even if you believe in the big bang theory, there must have been something that exploded. Do you think nothing exploded? If there was something, x, y, z, — any name, I am not much interested in such nonsense things, x, y, z, whatsoever it was that exploded — if something was there before the explosion then the explosion is not the beginning. It may be a beginning but it is not the beginning.

    And when I say there has never been any beginning, I mean the beginning. Something was always there — whether it exploded or whether it grew slowly, in one day or in six days or in one single moment, doesn’t matter. There must have been something before it, because only something can come out of something. Even if you say there was nothing, and it came out of nothing, then your nothing is full of something, it is not really nothing.

    Hence I say there has never been any beginning and there will never be any end. Maybe a beginning, maybe many beginnings and maybe many ends, but never the first and never the last. We are always in the middle. Existence is not a creation but a creativity. It is not that it begins one day and ends one day. It goes on and on; it is an ongoing process.

    That’s why, Subhuti, I say that all these guesses are useless and there is no need for them and they serve no purpose. This was Buddha’s approach too. Whenever somebody would ask a question like: “Who created the world?” — whether the world was ever created or is uncreated — Buddha would answer by other questions. He would ask: “If who created the world is decided, is it going to help your enlightenment? Is it going to help you become more silent, more meditative, more aware?”

    Certainly the person would answer: “It is not going to help. Who created the world doesn’t matter. It will not help my enlightenment and it will not make me more meditative.”

    Then Buddha said: “Then why bother about all this? Think of things which can help you to become more meditative, think of things which can help you become free of all the ego-clinging, think of things which can ultimately lead you into the state of samadhi.”

    My approach is also the same: these are all irrelevant questions. And because of these irrelevant questions there has been so much controversy down the ages and thousands of people have wasted their lives discussing who created the world, when exactly, what was the date — and so on, and so forth.

    I think these people were neurotics. I don’t think them healthy, normal, sane people. Who cares? For what? It does not matter at all, it is immaterial.

  75. hi,
    first time here…..really wonderful post… just felt the same sense of confusion and yet so much clarity in the very confusion at the same time. ๐Ÿ™‚

    totally with you on this topic. and like you said in reply to some comment above… “I know what an agnostic means, but I am confused whether Iam one..” ๐Ÿ™‚

    like like same same ๐Ÿ™‚

    cheers!
    arun

  76. the eternal struggle of mankind. it is easy to say there is no god, and at the same time you wish there were some one to bail you out in times of trouble…. thats the beauty of life … you decide to believe or not to … you choose your beliefs about various things… funnily though, they change with time & circumstances but you never admit you are wrong….

  77. Dear Lazy,
    I have read “En peyar Ramaseshan”. It was a great read.
    But still I dont think that it supports the argument you gave, if you remember.
    //Jokes apart, get this clearly, nobody who hasn’t born in this caste can write about what I had written. If you read Aathavan’s ‘Enn Peyar Ramaseshan’ you would know agree to what I say//
    //TTR,BTW, I suggest you read Enn Peyar Ramaseshan than me talking about it. I am sure its worth the hype that I give.//

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